Response to Lady Starscream.
Nov. 13th, 2006 05:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dunmurderinBig Important Read This First Note: This post is a response to a post made by LadyStarscream in her LJ. The big blocks that are in italics are her words, everything else is my usual long-windedness. Long story short, I largely agree with what she says, but...well, you can read the 'but' bits all through this biyatch.
Dreadmoon error fixed, thanks Devi and Luna!
What makes a Mary-Sue a Mary-Sue? why, if she's foul-tempered, or a good fighter with a strong will. Or if she's too feminine or weak-willed, or nice.. Now wait a minute. Isn't there allways going to be someone out there who thinks your femmchar is to feminie or too masculine? for example, I've heard writers put down a femmecharacter for being to feminine, simply because the person was less feminine than the character. Which I happen to be, myself. Or someone thought a character because they were more feminine than the fancharacter.
The problem with the term "Mary-Sue" is that it's been tossed around for so long that the definition has changed over time from "a character who is too perfect to live" into (in certain circles) "a character I don't like."
Also, if the character is a jet, which is more sleek and petit and all around more feminine than a boxy old car, thank you so very much. I have repeatedly had my femmecar characters referred to as 'he', and personally, I am sick and tired of it.
How can you tell a character is female when she has no chest? hmm? and for that, I give you the transformations that have the front end of the hood sticking out on their chest.
Uhhh.... wait, no, there's male characters that have that. My bad.
The problem with female jets is that they were/area dearth a plethora of them. (That word I used? It didn't mean what I thought it did. I meant plethora. Thanks Devi!) Everybody thinks that their female jet is the first one ever created and is therefore the bee's knees and everybody's going to think she's great! What they don't often realize is that we, the fanfic readers out there, have seen this character before in a dozen variations, usually each more sickening than the last.
Some people think a character is a mary sue simply because she's a 'she' and not a 'he'. Well, out of 135 listed characters in G1 and G2, there were 4 that were femal. I have come to firmly believe that 75% of writers think Transformers need more female characters. That's how arcee came into the series. Because the fans pissed and moaned about needing more female characters. (or any at all, for that matter).
Just a note: there were more than five female characters in the G1 era. Besides Elita-1 and the three other named female Autobots, there were two other unnamed characters stuck mostly in the background, Arcee, Beta who appeared in Forever is a Long Time coming. There are also unnamed background characters in a few episodes who can be described as female. Petty and pendantic, I know but I gotta show love for the minor ones.
I know you're probably saying stuff like "well, what if she carries a sword, and is good at it". Ok, go ask Grimlock. or Springer. Wait, canon characters can't be sues, can they?
uh..Elita-1, anyone?
I'm probably the rarity, but I really don't find Elita-1 to be all that Sueish. Yes, she has the stupid time-stop power, that saves Optimus at the end but considering that's a one-time use that almost kills her -- well, okay, the power is Sueish, but the problem with cries of "Mary Sue!" is that people forget that Sueishness is a matter of execution, not meeting criteria on a list.
And yaknow, I've seen writers completely remove perfectly good female characters because they were getting too Mary-Sue. (yes, I'm pointing at a certain writer, but I won't say your name here simply out of respect.) the character was a perfectly good character. And I have nothing against slash, don't get me wrong. But there's allways someone out there who will think your fancharacter is too bitchy, foul-tempered, or too sweet. So what's the medium? you cann't please everyone. The old saying even backs that up. "I can't please everyone at once. Today is not your day, and tomorrow's not looking good either."
(stops pointing)
It's a writer's choice to take down a fic they no longer feel comfortable with. I created characters back in the day that I would not want to see the light of the sun now because they make me cringe.
I've seen writers take down their stories, and even trash them because someone thought it wasn't good enough. Oh, yeah, screw what the writer thinks is fun or enjoyable writing. You think it's not good enough, so give them vague criticism till they throww away their hard work and imagination? I don't think so. 75% heck, maybe even more, write because they would love to meet their hero or heroine. That's why we write fafiction, isn't it? who can say "I haven't wrote a single fic in my entire history of writing fanfiction that I haven't put myself into the story or wrote a story about meeting one of the canon characters"?
I can. I have never, in the literal sense, put myself as an actual character into one of my stories. In the more figurative, literary sense that all writers put aspects of their personalities and their preferences into their work, yes, I'm in my stories. I have also never written a story about me meeting one of the canon characters and I will (probably) never write a story about me meeting one of the canon characters. Because in the case of the Combaticons, there's no way I would WANT to meet them and in the case of the Autobots I write about, I just can't think of a good reason for them to run into me.
Does this mean that I think all fics where people meet their favorite character or where they've ended up in the story are bad? No, but I do think that a vast majority of these stories are poorly executed. I'm sure the writers had all kinds of fun writing the stories and that's great -- but the problem comes when these same writers post these stories to the internet and expect me to be as entertained by them as they are.
I like stories that are good. And to me, a good story has a believable (or at least plausible) plot, characters I care about who start off and stay in character throughout the story and is written in such a way that I can follow the action and am amused by it. The last part is heavily subjective, what amuses me may bore the ever-lovin' pants off someone else and that person's idea of an OMG!Fantastic! fic may leave me going WTF?
My main problem with most self-insert fics is that people don't take time to figure out a plausible reason for themselves to meet their favorite heroes. Or they alter themselves into some fictionalized ideal of who they want to be, rather than who they are. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing this, but it turns me off as a reader because I don't like stories about perfect people that have setups that don't make sense. I like internal logic and order to the stories I read -- even the silly ones, strange as that is and contradictory in terms as it might sound.
Just once, I'd love to read a story about somebody trying to get the time off from work in order to go meet Prime at a car show. Or somebody running into Pipes at a flea market. Or the delight of seeing a convoy of Autobots on the highway. Nothing fancy, no "this is the chosen human who was prophesied in the prophecy that just now came up," no lost babies, no soap-opera style drama, just a nice simple fic with a realistic scenario for humans running into the Autobots.
even the writers that look down on that now will admit that they, too, once wrote this type of fiction. And why did they stop writing it? because of criticism from the very people they are like now.
As I said earlier, I have stuff that I've written in the past that I cannot bear to look at now. One of my oldest, non-TF, non-fanfic stories got burned because I just couldn't stand knowing that it still existed. And I burned it not because anybody told me it was horrible but because I didn't like it anymore. I have artist friends who look at their old work and go, "this is horrible" while I sit there and just boggle at them because the horrible thing they can't bear to look at is better than I could do with years of practice. Peoples' tastes change over time, particularly if they are improving their skills in a particular area. Some people simply acknowledge this change and some become fandom elitists who forget that once upon a time, buried in their hard drive or on a notebook somewhere is a fic that makes those they mock now look like War and Peace.
They look down on people who make their dreams come true through their imagination. If the imagination is not for that, then what is it for?
Generally, when I leave a negative review for a fic, it's not because I'm some mean ol' imagination-killing monster who doesn't want anybody else to have fun doing what they want to do. It's usually because I see a flaw in the fic that, in my opinion, needs to be repaired to help make the fic a stronger fic.
Imagination is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is if you're posting your fics out there in the great wide world, you are going to run into people who don't like what you've written. (note: use of the general 'you' throughout this part.) They're not going to like your setting, your characterization, your plotting -- whatever it is you do, chances are somebody out there is going to hate it because it doesn't jibe with their ideas about how things should be.
With fanfic writing, you walk a thin line between writing for your own enjoyment and writing for public consumption. My personal opinion is that if I'm writing something that I want others to read, I want it to be my best effort because I want my fic to be read and enjoyed by those who read it. And it flat out floors me that there are writers out there who think that "it's just fanfic" or "it's just for fun!" means that they don't have to put any effort into what they're doing.
Look at it this way, I invite you over to dinner. "C'mon! I've made a pot roast!" I tell you. "It'll be great! I stuck it in the crockpot this morning and it'll be done when you get here."
"Yay!" you say (should you like pot roast, which for the purposes of this exercise you do) and you head over to my house. When you arrive, I show you into the kitchen, seat you in a chair and hand you a plate of pot roast that is burnt on one side, raw on the other and covered with carrots that are raw and potatoes that are a soupy mush. How happy are you going to be?
That's how I feel when I read a fanfic where the author -- in my opinion -- clearly hasn't tried their best.
If one cannot be open minded to all the possibilities for fanfiction, and only write a small peice of what they want to, is it really so enjoyable?
Personally, I believe in writing what you like. I write about the characters I do because I like them. I don't write fics about Starscream because I don't like him. But I also believe in doing good work.
Should they be such a killjoy and put down the rest of us for wanting to create something that makes us happy? and you're probably saying "well, no, but it should still be well-written well-rounded characters." I'm sorry if not all of the writers out there are as experienced as you. and even some of us who are would give their right arm to meet Optimus Prime or Megatron, or a few others I can anme.
Experienced writers didn't start out that way. They practiced and they worked at their writing and they learned the basics of grammar and spelling and storytelling -- usually through trial and error. I've been writing since I was seventeen and I'm a lot better now than I was when I was younger because I've worked at it. And, to have an old fogey moment, I was working at it in the days before the Internet and the myriad resources it provides.
Weak on the basics of grammar and punctuation? There are websites that will help you, everything from academic pages to pages written by fans for fans that use examples from fanfics to make grammatical points clear.
Not sure about plotting or story structure? Again, the Internet is a cornucopia of advice and information from professional writers on down to your fellow fanficcers.
Spelling gets you down? Most word processors have spellcheckers these days and there is no excuse not to use them. And if you're stuck with WordPad or NotePad and can't access a spellchecker, there are dictionaries on line. There are other fans who can help you out, if you're willing to ask for it.
There's a big difference between inexperience and just not caring. Inexperienced writers, who give a damn about their work, will work to improve and I laud them for it.
Some writers may not be able to take blunt criticvism when they're just starting out. I know for a fact when I started writing fanfiction three years ago, I would have trashed all my hard work and effort, just because of one negative review. I've done it before. Never with anything on the internet, but I've been writing fanfiction since gradeschool. Yes, that long.
Then I highly suggest that these authors don't post their fanfics in public areas where they will have little or no control over the responses their works get. Stick to personal LiveJournals or smaller areas where they can be assured of the supportive audience they need.
I have been writing since I was seventeen and it has taken me a very, very long time to get used to being critiqued. When I sent my story Shambleau off to be beta-read, I had to have my girlfriend print out the reply and read it first and tell me if there was anything harsh in it before I could even look at it. I click on the 'reviews' link at FF.Net or the comments link at my LiveJournal with an equal sense of 'Yay! Comments!' and 'Oh God, what if they hate it?' every single time and probably will for the rest of my life.
BUT, if you are going to write for public consumption, you are going to have to get used to the idea that some readers are not going to like your story. And that some reviews are worth listening to and some reviews should be ignored -- and those aren't always the negative ones.
And, as an aside ,there are websites out there with information on dealing with critiques.
And I've thrown out books worth of fiction, because someone had something negative to say about it. Now you're probably thinking "oh, thay can handle on small negative review." no, they can't. Some may be able to, but I urge you to watch what you say, and how you say it. There's a growing number of anti-flame supporters now, and I agree with them. I'm not here to flame the flamers, though. Actually, I think a flamer is simply someone who gets a kick out of putting down someone else's work. There are reviewers who simply give their honest opinion, and I think thay aren't flamers.
I, generally, try to be even handed with my comments on fics. I know I'm probably not always as nice as I could be, but I try to avoid 'critiques' like "Stop writing now, please step away from the characters" -- no matter how much I might be thinking it, that sort of thing isn't helpful in the least. A good critique should point out what works and what doesn't and offer suggestions, not mandates, as to what should be fixed.
The problem is that many writers assume any critique of their darling stories is an automatic attack and not worth listening to. It's no surprise that a lot of these writers are the ones who could benefit from the advice the most.
But really, can you Sue a character for being female? or even for having a relationship wit a canon character.
I mean, there's been all of five canon femmes. And most of them have allready been paired up.
I have a real problem with people creating characters -- female OR male -- who have no other purpose except to be a love interest for whatever character the author fancies. I don't like it in Transformers, I don't like it in GI Joe, I don't like it in original fiction. It's lazy and laziness generally leads to boring, uninteresting fics. Any original character, male, female or otherwise, should be able to stand on their own and not just be "X's Love Interest." For personal preference, I'd love to see stories about female characters that focused on them as people first and bedmates second. Or third. Or not even in the top ten. Elita-1 is a soldier, not just Optimus Prime's girlfriend, it's about time she got some credit for that.
One of the things I like about Wayward's character Dreadmoon is that he is a character who was created as a love interest for Starscream -- but the character is so much more than that. He's got a life outside of Starscream. He's got a personality that isn't all tied up in making sure that his Twu Wuff is happy. He's interesting for reasons that have little or nothing to do with who he's in love with.
Edited to add: According to Wayward herself, Dreadmoon was NOT created as a love interest for Starscream, or even as a recurring character. He started off as a bit player, moved up into an ally and eventually got some nookie. That said, he still stands in my mind as a very good example of an OC love interest who is interesting for reasons other than who he's in love with. And the moving from bit player to ally to nookie-getter is a very nice progression to see since most fanfics either start off in the middle of the action (i.e. with the characters already in love) or gloss over the whole process of falling in love. Thanks to Devi and Luna for pointing out this goof on my part.
Over in GI Joe fandom, I like Desert Fox's female OCs, all of whom are paired off with a member of the GI Joe team and all of whom are interesting characters in their own right rather than thinly veiled disguises for the author herself.
And
not everyone believes in slash (gay) relationships in Transformers!
I cannot say that enough.
People are putting down female characters constantly. You're forcing writers to write or even accept slash when they don't want to, because femmecharacter/canon character relationships are an instant Mary-Sue.
In my case, I don't have a problem with female characters -- original or canonical -- being paired with male canon characters. I have a problem with many of these fics being poorly written. I have a problem that with too many smut fics, I could do a find and replace, change the names of the main characters from, say, Optimus and Elita-1 to Brad and Janet and the fic would still make sense. I have a problem with too many het fics humanizing Cybertronians. I have a problem with authors taking characters who are supposed to be warriors and turning them into victims (GI Joe fandom, no use trying to get away, I can see you trying to sneak out the back) simply because they're female.
If you (generic you) don't like slash, don't write it. It would actually be nice to see more het stories out there. All it takes is having the guts to do what you want to do and do it well.
Tell me you wouldn't want to meet the character(s) you write about so much? no? why? because someone would critisize you if you did. Right?
think about that.
Actually, I honestly have no desire to meet any of the characters I write about. Well, not entirely true. I might like to meet Pipes and Huffer and it would be cool to see Optimus Prime at least from a distance. But there is no earthly way I would ever want to run into the Combaticons. I don't have any illusions that I'd survive the encounter as anything other than a red mushy paste on the bottoms of their feet.
But that's a rant for a different day.
Edited to fix italics.
Dreadmoon error fixed, thanks Devi and Luna!
What makes a Mary-Sue a Mary-Sue? why, if she's foul-tempered, or a good fighter with a strong will. Or if she's too feminine or weak-willed, or nice.. Now wait a minute. Isn't there allways going to be someone out there who thinks your femmchar is to feminie or too masculine? for example, I've heard writers put down a femmecharacter for being to feminine, simply because the person was less feminine than the character. Which I happen to be, myself. Or someone thought a character because they were more feminine than the fancharacter.
The problem with the term "Mary-Sue" is that it's been tossed around for so long that the definition has changed over time from "a character who is too perfect to live" into (in certain circles) "a character I don't like."
Also, if the character is a jet, which is more sleek and petit and all around more feminine than a boxy old car, thank you so very much. I have repeatedly had my femmecar characters referred to as 'he', and personally, I am sick and tired of it.
How can you tell a character is female when she has no chest? hmm? and for that, I give you the transformations that have the front end of the hood sticking out on their chest.
Uhhh.... wait, no, there's male characters that have that. My bad.
The problem with female jets is that they were/are
Some people think a character is a mary sue simply because she's a 'she' and not a 'he'. Well, out of 135 listed characters in G1 and G2, there were 4 that were femal. I have come to firmly believe that 75% of writers think Transformers need more female characters. That's how arcee came into the series. Because the fans pissed and moaned about needing more female characters. (or any at all, for that matter).
Just a note: there were more than five female characters in the G1 era. Besides Elita-1 and the three other named female Autobots, there were two other unnamed characters stuck mostly in the background, Arcee, Beta who appeared in Forever is a Long Time coming. There are also unnamed background characters in a few episodes who can be described as female. Petty and pendantic, I know but I gotta show love for the minor ones.
I know you're probably saying stuff like "well, what if she carries a sword, and is good at it". Ok, go ask Grimlock. or Springer. Wait, canon characters can't be sues, can they?
uh..Elita-1, anyone?
I'm probably the rarity, but I really don't find Elita-1 to be all that Sueish. Yes, she has the stupid time-stop power, that saves Optimus at the end but considering that's a one-time use that almost kills her -- well, okay, the power is Sueish, but the problem with cries of "Mary Sue!" is that people forget that Sueishness is a matter of execution, not meeting criteria on a list.
And yaknow, I've seen writers completely remove perfectly good female characters because they were getting too Mary-Sue. (yes, I'm pointing at a certain writer, but I won't say your name here simply out of respect.) the character was a perfectly good character. And I have nothing against slash, don't get me wrong. But there's allways someone out there who will think your fancharacter is too bitchy, foul-tempered, or too sweet. So what's the medium? you cann't please everyone. The old saying even backs that up. "I can't please everyone at once. Today is not your day, and tomorrow's not looking good either."
(stops pointing)
It's a writer's choice to take down a fic they no longer feel comfortable with. I created characters back in the day that I would not want to see the light of the sun now because they make me cringe.
I've seen writers take down their stories, and even trash them because someone thought it wasn't good enough. Oh, yeah, screw what the writer thinks is fun or enjoyable writing. You think it's not good enough, so give them vague criticism till they throww away their hard work and imagination? I don't think so. 75% heck, maybe even more, write because they would love to meet their hero or heroine. That's why we write fafiction, isn't it? who can say "I haven't wrote a single fic in my entire history of writing fanfiction that I haven't put myself into the story or wrote a story about meeting one of the canon characters"?
I can. I have never, in the literal sense, put myself as an actual character into one of my stories. In the more figurative, literary sense that all writers put aspects of their personalities and their preferences into their work, yes, I'm in my stories. I have also never written a story about me meeting one of the canon characters and I will (probably) never write a story about me meeting one of the canon characters. Because in the case of the Combaticons, there's no way I would WANT to meet them and in the case of the Autobots I write about, I just can't think of a good reason for them to run into me.
Does this mean that I think all fics where people meet their favorite character or where they've ended up in the story are bad? No, but I do think that a vast majority of these stories are poorly executed. I'm sure the writers had all kinds of fun writing the stories and that's great -- but the problem comes when these same writers post these stories to the internet and expect me to be as entertained by them as they are.
I like stories that are good. And to me, a good story has a believable (or at least plausible) plot, characters I care about who start off and stay in character throughout the story and is written in such a way that I can follow the action and am amused by it. The last part is heavily subjective, what amuses me may bore the ever-lovin' pants off someone else and that person's idea of an OMG!Fantastic! fic may leave me going WTF?
My main problem with most self-insert fics is that people don't take time to figure out a plausible reason for themselves to meet their favorite heroes. Or they alter themselves into some fictionalized ideal of who they want to be, rather than who they are. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing this, but it turns me off as a reader because I don't like stories about perfect people that have setups that don't make sense. I like internal logic and order to the stories I read -- even the silly ones, strange as that is and contradictory in terms as it might sound.
Just once, I'd love to read a story about somebody trying to get the time off from work in order to go meet Prime at a car show. Or somebody running into Pipes at a flea market. Or the delight of seeing a convoy of Autobots on the highway. Nothing fancy, no "this is the chosen human who was prophesied in the prophecy that just now came up," no lost babies, no soap-opera style drama, just a nice simple fic with a realistic scenario for humans running into the Autobots.
even the writers that look down on that now will admit that they, too, once wrote this type of fiction. And why did they stop writing it? because of criticism from the very people they are like now.
As I said earlier, I have stuff that I've written in the past that I cannot bear to look at now. One of my oldest, non-TF, non-fanfic stories got burned because I just couldn't stand knowing that it still existed. And I burned it not because anybody told me it was horrible but because I didn't like it anymore. I have artist friends who look at their old work and go, "this is horrible" while I sit there and just boggle at them because the horrible thing they can't bear to look at is better than I could do with years of practice. Peoples' tastes change over time, particularly if they are improving their skills in a particular area. Some people simply acknowledge this change and some become fandom elitists who forget that once upon a time, buried in their hard drive or on a notebook somewhere is a fic that makes those they mock now look like War and Peace.
They look down on people who make their dreams come true through their imagination. If the imagination is not for that, then what is it for?
Generally, when I leave a negative review for a fic, it's not because I'm some mean ol' imagination-killing monster who doesn't want anybody else to have fun doing what they want to do. It's usually because I see a flaw in the fic that, in my opinion, needs to be repaired to help make the fic a stronger fic.
Imagination is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is if you're posting your fics out there in the great wide world, you are going to run into people who don't like what you've written. (note: use of the general 'you' throughout this part.) They're not going to like your setting, your characterization, your plotting -- whatever it is you do, chances are somebody out there is going to hate it because it doesn't jibe with their ideas about how things should be.
With fanfic writing, you walk a thin line between writing for your own enjoyment and writing for public consumption. My personal opinion is that if I'm writing something that I want others to read, I want it to be my best effort because I want my fic to be read and enjoyed by those who read it. And it flat out floors me that there are writers out there who think that "it's just fanfic" or "it's just for fun!" means that they don't have to put any effort into what they're doing.
Look at it this way, I invite you over to dinner. "C'mon! I've made a pot roast!" I tell you. "It'll be great! I stuck it in the crockpot this morning and it'll be done when you get here."
"Yay!" you say (should you like pot roast, which for the purposes of this exercise you do) and you head over to my house. When you arrive, I show you into the kitchen, seat you in a chair and hand you a plate of pot roast that is burnt on one side, raw on the other and covered with carrots that are raw and potatoes that are a soupy mush. How happy are you going to be?
That's how I feel when I read a fanfic where the author -- in my opinion -- clearly hasn't tried their best.
If one cannot be open minded to all the possibilities for fanfiction, and only write a small peice of what they want to, is it really so enjoyable?
Personally, I believe in writing what you like. I write about the characters I do because I like them. I don't write fics about Starscream because I don't like him. But I also believe in doing good work.
Should they be such a killjoy and put down the rest of us for wanting to create something that makes us happy? and you're probably saying "well, no, but it should still be well-written well-rounded characters." I'm sorry if not all of the writers out there are as experienced as you. and even some of us who are would give their right arm to meet Optimus Prime or Megatron, or a few others I can anme.
Experienced writers didn't start out that way. They practiced and they worked at their writing and they learned the basics of grammar and spelling and storytelling -- usually through trial and error. I've been writing since I was seventeen and I'm a lot better now than I was when I was younger because I've worked at it. And, to have an old fogey moment, I was working at it in the days before the Internet and the myriad resources it provides.
Weak on the basics of grammar and punctuation? There are websites that will help you, everything from academic pages to pages written by fans for fans that use examples from fanfics to make grammatical points clear.
Not sure about plotting or story structure? Again, the Internet is a cornucopia of advice and information from professional writers on down to your fellow fanficcers.
Spelling gets you down? Most word processors have spellcheckers these days and there is no excuse not to use them. And if you're stuck with WordPad or NotePad and can't access a spellchecker, there are dictionaries on line. There are other fans who can help you out, if you're willing to ask for it.
There's a big difference between inexperience and just not caring. Inexperienced writers, who give a damn about their work, will work to improve and I laud them for it.
Some writers may not be able to take blunt criticvism when they're just starting out. I know for a fact when I started writing fanfiction three years ago, I would have trashed all my hard work and effort, just because of one negative review. I've done it before. Never with anything on the internet, but I've been writing fanfiction since gradeschool. Yes, that long.
Then I highly suggest that these authors don't post their fanfics in public areas where they will have little or no control over the responses their works get. Stick to personal LiveJournals or smaller areas where they can be assured of the supportive audience they need.
I have been writing since I was seventeen and it has taken me a very, very long time to get used to being critiqued. When I sent my story Shambleau off to be beta-read, I had to have my girlfriend print out the reply and read it first and tell me if there was anything harsh in it before I could even look at it. I click on the 'reviews' link at FF.Net or the comments link at my LiveJournal with an equal sense of 'Yay! Comments!' and 'Oh God, what if they hate it?' every single time and probably will for the rest of my life.
BUT, if you are going to write for public consumption, you are going to have to get used to the idea that some readers are not going to like your story. And that some reviews are worth listening to and some reviews should be ignored -- and those aren't always the negative ones.
And, as an aside ,there are websites out there with information on dealing with critiques.
And I've thrown out books worth of fiction, because someone had something negative to say about it. Now you're probably thinking "oh, thay can handle on small negative review." no, they can't. Some may be able to, but I urge you to watch what you say, and how you say it. There's a growing number of anti-flame supporters now, and I agree with them. I'm not here to flame the flamers, though. Actually, I think a flamer is simply someone who gets a kick out of putting down someone else's work. There are reviewers who simply give their honest opinion, and I think thay aren't flamers.
I, generally, try to be even handed with my comments on fics. I know I'm probably not always as nice as I could be, but I try to avoid 'critiques' like "Stop writing now, please step away from the characters" -- no matter how much I might be thinking it, that sort of thing isn't helpful in the least. A good critique should point out what works and what doesn't and offer suggestions, not mandates, as to what should be fixed.
The problem is that many writers assume any critique of their darling stories is an automatic attack and not worth listening to. It's no surprise that a lot of these writers are the ones who could benefit from the advice the most.
But really, can you Sue a character for being female? or even for having a relationship wit a canon character.
I mean, there's been all of five canon femmes. And most of them have allready been paired up.
I have a real problem with people creating characters -- female OR male -- who have no other purpose except to be a love interest for whatever character the author fancies. I don't like it in Transformers, I don't like it in GI Joe, I don't like it in original fiction. It's lazy and laziness generally leads to boring, uninteresting fics. Any original character, male, female or otherwise, should be able to stand on their own and not just be "X's Love Interest." For personal preference, I'd love to see stories about female characters that focused on them as people first and bedmates second. Or third. Or not even in the top ten. Elita-1 is a soldier, not just Optimus Prime's girlfriend, it's about time she got some credit for that.
Edited to add: According to Wayward herself, Dreadmoon was NOT created as a love interest for Starscream, or even as a recurring character. He started off as a bit player, moved up into an ally and eventually got some nookie. That said, he still stands in my mind as a very good example of an OC love interest who is interesting for reasons other than who he's in love with. And the moving from bit player to ally to nookie-getter is a very nice progression to see since most fanfics either start off in the middle of the action (i.e. with the characters already in love) or gloss over the whole process of falling in love. Thanks to Devi and Luna for pointing out this goof on my part.
Over in GI Joe fandom, I like Desert Fox's female OCs, all of whom are paired off with a member of the GI Joe team and all of whom are interesting characters in their own right rather than thinly veiled disguises for the author herself.
And
not everyone believes in slash (gay) relationships in Transformers!
I cannot say that enough.
People are putting down female characters constantly. You're forcing writers to write or even accept slash when they don't want to, because femmecharacter/canon character relationships are an instant Mary-Sue.
In my case, I don't have a problem with female characters -- original or canonical -- being paired with male canon characters. I have a problem with many of these fics being poorly written. I have a problem that with too many smut fics, I could do a find and replace, change the names of the main characters from, say, Optimus and Elita-1 to Brad and Janet and the fic would still make sense. I have a problem with too many het fics humanizing Cybertronians. I have a problem with authors taking characters who are supposed to be warriors and turning them into victims (GI Joe fandom, no use trying to get away, I can see you trying to sneak out the back) simply because they're female.
If you (generic you) don't like slash, don't write it. It would actually be nice to see more het stories out there. All it takes is having the guts to do what you want to do and do it well.
Tell me you wouldn't want to meet the character(s) you write about so much? no? why? because someone would critisize you if you did. Right?
think about that.
Actually, I honestly have no desire to meet any of the characters I write about. Well, not entirely true. I might like to meet Pipes and Huffer and it would be cool to see Optimus Prime at least from a distance. But there is no earthly way I would ever want to run into the Combaticons. I don't have any illusions that I'd survive the encounter as anything other than a red mushy paste on the bottoms of their feet.
But that's a rant for a different day.
Edited to fix italics.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
reply to your reply (heh.)
Date: 2006-11-14 12:23 am (UTC)I was honestly convinced I was going to get majorly flamed for writing that. (It was 3am+no cigarettes=grumpiness, my apologies)
but yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said.
Re: reply to your reply (heh.)
Date: 2006-11-14 01:32 am (UTC)Personally, my take on Mary Sue Litmus tests is that they should be used as a guide of things to be watchful for when creating a character. At their most basic, a Mary Sue litmus test gives you, the new writer (or the old writer) an idea of what others in your fandom have seen rehashed over and over and over and over and over over (and on and on and on...you get the idea) again. If your character has a high score, that doesn't mean you should throw the character out but maybe that you should think more about WHY you made those particular choices and what it is you really want your character to be like. It's entirely possible to have a character who may meet several criteria on the Mary Sue list but who is in practice and execution not a Sue. Canon characters like Snake-Eyes in GI Joe or Carrot Ironfoundersson in the Night Watch sub series of the Discworld books come to mind.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 12:24 am (UTC)re
Date: 2006-11-14 01:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 01:52 am (UTC)...I smell a challenge! =)
If you don't make this a challenge yourself in the form of a LJ community, would you mind it being a future monthly challenge sometime down the line at the 'Spark? There would of course be full credit where credit's due... I have this thing about plagiarism, it's not me. =)
*preens!*
Date: 2006-11-14 01:56 am (UTC)Dun.
PS: Hope you're over the office plague soon!
it's all in the execution...
Date: 2006-11-14 02:04 am (UTC)I have written both the kind of characters that get accused of Suedom in less-skilled hands, and the kind
The problem with female jets is that they were/are a dearth of them. Everybody thinks that their female jet is the first one ever created and is therefore the bee's knees and everybody's going to think she's great! What they don't often realize is that we, the fanfic readers out there, have seen this character before in a dozen variations, usually each more sickening than the last.
For the DBZ fandom, strike out "female jets" and replace it with "surviving female Saiyan". I introduced not one, but two surviving female Saiyans in one of my stories (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2517479/1/). I got away with it. Of course, one was the psychotic villain, and the other was an eight-year-old girl who wasn't snogging anyone.
Sueishness is a matter of execution, not meeting criteria on a list.
My whole point here. *grins*
Yes and no. Never put myself "as-is", did put one of my full-blown MarySue alter-egos into a Usenet round-robin that has hopefully disappeared into the mists of time. My Mary Sue is a Great Old One; if you're going to "god-mode", really "GOD-mode" it!
Nothing fancy, no "this is the chosen human who was prophesied in the prophecy that just now came up," no lost babies, no soap-opera style drama, just a nice simple fic with a realistic scenario for humans running into the Autobots.
Or Decepticons, in my case: Ghost Jets (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3210277/1/) and Playing With Kids (Dead End 28) (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3005372/6/).
Personally, I believe in writing what you like. I write about the characters I do because I like them. I don't write fics about Starscream because I don't like him. But I also believe in doing good work.
Starscream: *sulks*
I second the motion. Really, you have to write about the characters you like, or rather, who interest you, or you won't do a good job of it. Frankly, if I'm going to put something up in public, I'd rather not embarrass myself by doing a half-assed job of it. Write anything you please, but if it's in public, it is subject to public opinion.
I have a real problem with people creating characters -- female OR male -- who have no other purpose except to be a love interest for whatever character the author fancies.
Back to my DBZ fics: Nezumi and Lina were created in Mythic Descent (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/136328/1/) to be the office girls lusting after Raditz. Lina stayed on the office staff, Nezumi went on to become a full-blown love interest in Deceiver's Legacy (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2517479/1/). Of course, they also have developed personalities and have more function in the stories than "look decorative on the protagonist's arm". (Nezumi: blows up demon with anti-tank rocket. Rescues Raditz from space. Various other things). It's all in the execution.
I have a problem that with too many smut fics, I could do a find and replace, change the names of the main characters from, say, Optimus and Elita-1 to Brad and Janet and the fic would still make sense.
I want to see this story that would make sense as both TF smut and Rocky Horror fanfic. I really do.
A good writer can break "the rules" six ways from Sunday and still tell a great story. A lousy writer can follow all the rules and checklists and still produce something that makes me hit the 'Back' button two paragraphs in.
It's all in the execution.
1 Do quickly learn that you should not care about everyone's opinions, because the Internet is full of idiots. For some people, the only answer is, in the words of Marty McFly, "He's an idiot! Why do I care what he thinks?"
Re: it's all in the execution...
Date: 2006-11-14 04:30 am (UTC)IMO, that's what makes a character get away from being a Mary Sue. My own fan character in my Transformers fanfics started out being very, very Sueish, but as the story has written itself (and we know that happens!), the "love interest" bit of her character has become just that - a bit. Now at least one person has called her the anti-Mary Sue, and I can't figure out what else I did right besides that. *lol*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 02:28 am (UTC)Did you mean "a plethora of them"? Because "dearth" means "too few," and going by context, I don't think that's what you meant to say there...
On the subject itself - well, yes, there are many female Seeker OCs. But (yes, now I'm coming with the but) for all we know, there was a plethora of Seekers on Cybertron. It's generally assumed that generic Seekers made up the majority of the Decepticon forces. Thus, it only makes sense that many OCs would be Seekers.
That, and if a Seeker is specifically what you want to write, a car girl just won't do.
On Elita-1: I think it's not just the time-stop power that made her unpopular with fans, but the way she was written, specificially the whole "Priiiiiiiime! I want to go wiiiith you!"
What fans forget is that the just-mentioned clingy moment was one moment. Elita made it for four million years without her man. She wasn't at home doing needlepoint; she was at home leading the female Autobots and successfully staying hidden from Shockwave. (Yes, I wish there was more Elita-appreciation, can you tell?)
In that context, wordity word to this:
For personal preference, I'd love to see stories about female characters that focused on them as people first and bedmates second. Or third. Or not even in the top ten. Elita-1 is a soldier, not just Optimus Prime's girlfriend, it's about time she got some credit for that.
I think one could almost say that "the way to write a good female character is to write her like you would a male character," in the sense that, well, male characters are (generally) given a whole personality and plot that "focuses on them as people rather than bedmates." I mean, if you look at Top Gun, to use an arbitrary example, Maverick's story, his journey as a person, isn't "falls for Charlie and boinks her," it's a whole lot of other things and the boinking just - also happens.
One of the things I like about Wayward's character Dreadmoon is that he is a character who was created as a love interest for Starscream
Actually, no, he wasn't. Yes, Stormworld and even Worlds Away could be read as 'pre-slash' in retrospect, but according to Wayward (and I'm taking her word on this), Dreadmoon wasn't initially intended to be Starscream's boyfriend or even a recurring character.
Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree.
re
Date: 2006-11-14 02:41 am (UTC)And there's nothing wrong with female jets. Not personally a big Seeker fan in general but yeah, you couldn't swing a dead cat on Cybertron without hitting a Seeker so it makes sense that they'd be there.
Elita-1: See, again, that's what I don't get. What's wrong about her wanting to be with the man she loves? If it was me, I'd want to go along too. Everybody takes it as a sign of weakness on her part, but maybe it's more a sense of "I want to go wtih you because I'm scared of what'll happen to you if I'm not there to protect you."
But then, Transfans do tend to focus on those "one moment" incidents. Which is why Magnus gets stuck being a Big Suck Loser who can't deal with things (good god, he had other things that were more important that Hot Rod and Kup at that moment people, give him a break!) and Red Alert is crazy-paranoid-gimme-candy man! (and Transfans aren't alone; Low-Light gets stuck being crazy-nightmares man over in GI Joeland despite having reached closure with that issue at the end of "Nightmare Assault" but I'll rant on that anothre day).
Wordy-mcword on writing female characters as you would write male characters.
Dreadmoon: Doh! My bad. But he does still stand as an excellent example of the OC half of an OC/Canon Character couple.
As I'm about to be late to work, I'll edit the errors in this tomorrow. Gotta fly!
dun
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 03:15 am (UTC)i smell a challenge here too... or something... gah, dammit! as if i didnt have enough bunnies running around in my head and demanding ficcage time...
Should they be such a killjoy and put down the rest of us for wanting to create something that makes us happy? and you're probably saying "well, no, but it should still be well-written well-rounded characters." I'm sorry if not all of the writers out there are as experienced as you...
i agree with what Dun said to this... people who post of ffnet obviously have internet access so there's absolutely no excuse to why they cant do some research and clean up their stuff a bit before posting... its laziness is what it is... they just scribble something out in under half an hour and throw it up online expecting to be lauded for it... and some even have the gall to admit that they were too lazy to spellcheck and beta it...
so if you're (general 'you' here) not gonna care about the standard of the fic, why the heck should i, as a reader, give a frag...
in terms of experience, i've been writing since i was 14... and i didnt have internet access till i was 20... so i had to learn through lots of trial and error... speaking only for TF fics, i can actually look at the first TF fic i ever wrote, and cringe like mad, because i've gotten better with time... and the key here is to ask for help if you're not sure of something...
another key is to read... read good fics and look at how good authors write and note their styles... i spent a whole year just reading TF fanfic to get a feel of the fandom and to note the good and the bad, before i ever touched pen to paper..
thats my five cents worth
re
Date: 2006-11-14 07:35 pm (UTC)It's one thing if an author doesn't *know* what's out there -- I'd never heard of beta-readers when I started writing fanfic about 4 years ago. If you have no idea that a resource exists, you don't have any way of knowing to look for it. It's another if a person's response to even the gentlest criticism is to get all huffy and start trying to hide behind the "It's my style!" thing.
another key is to read... read good fics and look at how good authors write and note their styles... i spent a whole year just reading TF fanfic to get a feel of the fandom and to note the good and the bad, before i ever touched pen to paper..
Don't just read fanfics. Read other stuff as well. I've seen that advice given in a lot of writing books and I stand by it (largely because I love to read). REading other peoples' works gives you an idea of what works and what doesn't. It can also help broaden your scope, give you ideas for situations and characters and a potentially broader understanding of your own writing.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 02:15 pm (UTC)As an aerospace engineer in training, I really do have to argue with that. Look at an Vanquish (a sort of car). It's sleek and sexy. Look at a A-10, a jet. It is, by popular opinion, ugly as sin. Heck, look at an AWAC. Now that's just weird. Finally, look at some size specs for a jet, even a dinky little Lear jet. Jets are big. Jets are not sleeker and more petite than cars. Jets are, as a rule, bigger than cars, and many of them are much boxier and uglier than cars.
As for more feminine? If a tank-eating GAU-12 is feminine, you were raised by Amazons. If horsepower in the range of thousands is feminine, your mother was a racecar driver. Jets aren't feminine, particularly the military ones. They're utility tools. The only thing feminine about them are the cheesecake nosearts that they so proudly display.
One of the things I like about Wayward's character Dreadmoon is that he is a character who was created as a love interest for Starscream
Actually, he wasn't created as Starscream's love interest at all, if you've looked at Wayward's commentary on her older fics. He started as a random bit character, developed into an ally, and finally got some nookie.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-14 03:33 pm (UTC)Actually, he wasn't created as Starscream's love interest at all, if you've looked at Wayward's commentary on her older fics. He started as a random bit character, developed into an ally, and finally got some nookie.
*chuckles*
I'm beginning to wonder if the best romantic interests do start that way--background characters that develop as time goes on. As I mentioned in regarding my DBZ fics, the OC who eventually marries Raditz started out as bit character comic relief. Being a capable, level-headed character in a massive crisis, she grew quite a bit from that start.
re
Date: 2006-11-14 07:18 pm (UTC)Romance novels
Date: 2006-11-14 08:33 pm (UTC)I wrote Deceiver's Legacy (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2517479/1/) as a romance--I was trying to see if I could write a fanfic in that genre. I think I did, though obstacles included psychotic stalker-Saiyan, Vegeta trying to kill Raditz, and an invasion of killer robots along with the traditional romance obstacles like "I'm not worthy of her, so I must discourage her attentions!", "He's really attracted to (other woman C), oh Noes!", and "massive misunderstanding about who slept with whom and/or committed genocide".
re
Date: 2006-11-14 07:26 pm (UTC)I definately agree that not all jets are 'feminine' looking. Though I would die a happy woman if somebody would write a story about a female jet based off the GINORMOUS C-5 Galaxy (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11168&sc=400). Baby's got back, front, sides and up and down!
Re: re
Date: 2006-11-14 08:38 pm (UTC)I do have a female Antonov 225 Decepticon. There's a bit about her written in my Colony Wars summary. I also used to RP her at one place.
Sexy planes
Date: 2006-11-14 09:22 pm (UTC)The sexiness of fighter planes is not the sexiness of a woman, it's the grace and elegance of a falcon stooping on its prey...
Re: Sexy planes
Date: 2006-11-15 03:18 am (UTC)Death for the pilots, mostly. There's a reason it was nicknamed the "Widowmaker" or "Flying Coffin"...
Re: re
Date: 2006-11-15 03:14 am (UTC)