dunmurderin: (Combaticons!)
[personal profile] dunmurderin
Ok, so it's not so much a battle as it is me whinging like a whinging thing about why writing is haaaard.

I got to pondering about this the other night at work since I'm in the middle of working on both fanfics and original fictions at the same time.

In some ways, fanfiction can be easier (for me) to write than original fiction is. I have a tendency, when I write, to think in terms of scenes and dialogue and then go from there. In some cases, it's almost like I can see how the story is supposed to go and more or less just follow along. This seems to work well for fanfiction because all the grunt work of setting, characterization, theme, etc., has already been done for me.

With original fiction, I might start off with an idea for a scene or a character or a story but since I generally think in terms of science fiction/fantasy plots, I find myself having to do the grunt-work of coming up with the story world, characterizations, settings, themes, etc. Which is fun, don't get me wrong, but it can also be very distracting from what I want to do which is write the damn idea in the first place.

I'll usually start writing an original idea, but then I'll get caught up in having to figure out how something might work -- a character, an idea, a bit of the world building -- and then things will either stall or sometimes stop dead because I like for things to make sense and if they don't my brain gets all hurty-like.

Now, granted, the above also happens with fanfics but with fanfics, it's possible to go look up information about characters/setting rather than having to make them up and make them make sense. Need a GI Joe who can handle lasers? Five minutes on Google and I've got my answers -- and that's only if I don't go to the reference books I have at home. How does the inside of a Transformer work? Nobody knows, toss some techno-babble at it and we can move on!

But with original fiction, I tend to feel that the details are more important because I'm trying to create something that can stand on its own and that is consistent in and of itself -- maybe it won't be 100% documentary style realism but I also don't want suspension of disbelief knocking people out in the first couple of paragraphs. So, when the need to know the history of vampire hunting in my world comes up, I can do some research and reading about vampires and vampire hunting in this world and end up with a whole host of really cool catalogs but ultimately, how it works comes down to me.

Which is scary because like a lot of writers I'm horribly insecure about my own abilities. Fanfiction provides a scale against which I can measure myself -- did I stick close to the characters? Does what I wrote feel like it's at least in the spirit of the orginal? -- as well as a built in support group and no real worries because publishing is as simple as posting the fic somewhere.

With original fiction, I'm working without a net and measuring myself against myself and that, I think, makes me shy away from it. That and I'm actually hoping to one day get published for cash money and fiction writing is a buyer's market with fierce competition and the standards are a lot higher in some respects.

Of course, on the downside with fanfiction I tend to be self-conscious because the nagging little voice of "you're wasting your time" is always there in the back of my head warring with the sense of pride I do feel about my fanfics. I like my stuff, other people like my stuff and I've managed to write 90+ fanfics over the last three years -- actual stories with beginnings, middles and ends. Fanfiction made it possible for me to write about widowhood in ways that I don't know if I'd ever have been able to write about with original characters. For some reason, a little blue truck and a mute ninja made it easier to talk about one of the hardest things I've ever been through.

What's stupid to me about this whole self-conscious thing is that I know in my heart of hearts that I don't approach writing fanfiction really any differently than I do writing original fiction. I don't just load myself up with pop rocks and Coke and get crazy. I do the same kinds of research and revision with my fanfics that I do with original fics -- I once spent over an hour and a half researching a piece of information that amounted to one line in a fic just because I wanted to be as sure about it as I could. And for the record, you hyphenate anal retentive depending on context.

This isn't to say I'm giving up on original fiction in favor of fanfic -- or vice versa -- I want to finish both my novel *and* my GI Joe/TF fic because even in their unfinished states, they've got fans. And because they're both representative of things I love. Vampires and beating high holy hell out of the Combaticons, what could be more fun?

Date: 2008-07-01 11:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] desert-vixen.livejournal.com

I think that fanfic also provides a valuable place to practice the rules - when to stay within them and when to break them.

And it's good practice for spotting logical plot holes and filling them.

May I link?

DV

Date: 2008-07-02 12:50 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
I agree; even when I'm working on original fics, I go to some fanfic sites for ideas/inspiration on how to handle writing certain things. Holy Mother Grammatica's (http://www.skeeter63.org/~silvablu/HMG/00-Introduction.htm) site is great regardless of the type of fiction you're writing and [livejournal.com profile] fanficrants, [livejournal.com profile] weepingcock, and some of the other fanfic ranting communities are helpful for finding out what not to do.

And yes, pls feel free to link!

Date: 2008-07-02 03:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dragoness-e.livejournal.com
*shyly raises hand*

You're writing my never-written post about writing fanfic & original fiction for me.

Read some good writer's forums, btw, like Absolute Write, for tips and the assurance that you're not alone in feeling insecure about your writing. It's a standard affliction of good writers.

Oddly enough, the hacks seem to think they're great...

Date: 2008-07-03 01:06 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
I think the other part of the insecurity is that, with fanfic, there's no real pressure on -- other than the whole "Whooo! You're wasting your talents!" bs that can be ignored, particularly in light of positive feedback for said work. Fics have to be good, but they don't have the same weight of 'This is ART!*' that original fic does.

Essentially, if I could find a way to turn off the fret and make writing original stuff a lot more like writing fanfic in terms of "I'm just gonna do it and post it and hell with the consequences! F'off insecurity!" I think I'd be a lot happier at the end of the day.

Which, I think I'm gonna try to do. 'Cause what the hell do I really have to lose? I mean, once you write Metal-Head/Gnawgahyde slash, you've pretty much said "Here I am world! Watch out!" *G*

thanks for the rec, I will check it out

* (It helps to imagine 'This is ART!' being yelled in full-on throat-rending 'This is SPAR-TA!' style by the crazy art snob in my head)

Date: 2008-07-03 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com
I find fanfic harder than original fic, not least because you have to have the whole canon in your head and never step outside the boundaries. You also know that your readers have very clear ideas of the characters.

Date: 2008-07-04 12:21 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
That is the other side of fanfic writing -- with original fics, you're only beholden to yourself and other people can't really tell you that you have your world wrong because hey, you made up that world.

While I do agree that you do have to know what happened before you can write a fic about a particular canon, I don't necessarily think you need to have the whole of canon in your head before you do. Though this can also depend a lot on what fandom you're writing in. I write mainly in fandoms where canon isn't one set solid thing, but is more of a pot-luck where you can pick and choose and mix and match according to your tastes. It also doesn't hurt that almost anything a fan comes up with can be justified because some version of the canon did something similar or even weirder (Especially in Transformers. Kiss Players! (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Kiss_Players_%28franchise%29) Lookin' at you!)

I agree that readers can have clear ideas about characters but by and large, in my fanfics I'm more concerned about my very clear ideas about the characters. As I mention further down, spite plays a bit of a role in what I choose to write about and I'm apt to write a character in a certain way because I don't like the popular portrayal of that character or because I'm tired of seeing a character or a situation portrayed in a certain way. Or simply because I'm tired of NOT seeing a certain character portrayed at ALL. (*waves to Techrat*)

Then again, I'm used to writing in fandoms where the cry that the fandom has been "Ruined FOREVER!" (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER) is heard everytime Hasbro brings out a new version of Transformers or GI Joe and with repetition, that gets easier adn easier to ignore. Not to mention you only have to look around to see that often times those 'clear ideas' don't necessarily match up with actual canon. Canon vs. Fanon Snape (http://zorm.deviantart.com/art/Canon-Vs-Fanon-Snape-34384180?offset=20), for instance.

Which fandoms do you write in (I'm guessing based on the name, "Remmington Steele" but are there others?) and how does that change things? I've often referred to my fanfic writings as playing with the toys I never had as a kid; does it make a difference when the 'toys' in question are actual actors instead of, well, toys?

Date: 2008-07-04 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nyssa23.livejournal.com
OMG that Snape picture is the funniest thing I have ever seen. And I've never even read HP. LOL

Date: 2008-07-04 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com
I write Remington Steele, Blake's 7 and By the Sword Divided. All are closed canon, so nothing is going to change unexpectedly. I am a canon pedant, I never step outside canon and all of my fandoms have very definite canons that the fans know well.

I don't see myself as writing actors, but characters. To me, I am just filling in gaps and continuing the story. I mostly write Remington Steele these days, which spend four years teasing the audience with a relationship which may or may not have been consummated in the final episode (the last scene showed them turning out the bedroom light).

I've written a sixth season continuing the story from that moment and I am fanatical about keeping everyone in character. I've been told my dialogue is so perfectly in character that it's like watching the episodes. I love that.

I've also done a lot of fictional journal writing and I have explored the pasts of the main characters.

I couldn't write an open canon fandom. I need to know that my story isn't about to become AU just because one of the writers comes up with something unexpected.

Date: 2008-07-04 05:36 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
I used to watch Remington Steele when I was a kid -- I had such a thing for Murphy. *happy nostalgia sigh*

The canons I write in tend to be closed mainly because I prefer the 80s versions of my particular favorites. I have written a couple AU stories set in the Transformers Armada 'verse, but that was kind of a cheat since it was using one canon character and AU versions of canon characters from the original 80s Transformers universe. But people liked it so I must've done something right *G*

The closest I've come to writing in an open canon is basing some fics on the then-current GI Joe comic (this was a year or two ago) and in that case, if canon had changed to something I didn't want to use, I was ready to slap up the "AU!" label ASAP.

Date: 2008-07-04 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com
My sister adores Murphy. If you ever want to read some RS fanfic, come to http://community.livejournal.com/steelewriting/

80s stuff is great. My brain never really left the 80s.

Date: 2008-07-03 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] omnipredation.livejournal.com
Pros and cons to both, of course. I think starting out with a preestablished universe frees one from some of the initial stress of starting to write. You just have to have an idea to apply to a framework. It's actually great practice. Odds are if you hadn't written those 90+ fanfics, you wouldn't have written 50,000 original words last November.

Now let's go write some House fanfiction! *g*

Date: 2008-07-03 11:11 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
Having the world building done does remove a lot of the initial stress -- it's easier to fill in gaps than it is to build the entire wall, as it were.

And yeah, I think you're right because by the time I started writing fanfic again I'd more or less given up on writing *anything*, original or fan. And writing fics and getting positive feedback and just generally getting myself into the headspace where I could think of myself as a writer again helped considerably in making it possible for me to start on (and eventually finish it, I will finish it goddamnit!) Butcher's Work.

Whoot! Housefic! BTW, I found the link to that Dr's journal about House that I told you about. Since almost everybody else has gotten a link, here is link for you: Medical Reviews of House (http://www.politedissent.com/house_pd.html) -- it's up to Season Four, episode 16.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-07-03 11:04 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
Actually, I've got Talia Gryphon's "Key to Conflict" (http://dunmurderin.livejournal.com/67594.html) as my "If she can, I can!" because good GOD that book is just...gahhh! (note: spoilers in link)

Which is actually something that's helped me write fanfics before too -- the pure and simple spite of "I can do this better than *THEM*" or "This will drive them nuts!" or "Screw you all, I'm writing about this character even if I'm the only one who cares about them!"

(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-07-04 12:24 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
You could be right. I don't tend to think of what I do as a 'girl' thing but that's probably for the same reason that a goldfish doesn't think much about water.

And thanks 8)

Date: 2008-07-07 05:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folklorefanatic.livejournal.com
I think for me it was more the fact that she managed to outsell nearly eery fiction book on the market and still write a vampire book without any sex in it (or any redeemable qualities in the main character aside from her ability to cook a mean supper that would make her worthy of Teh Hot Vampyre Goth Boi).

Yeah, I'm bitter. She's a successful hack, and I'm not, and I want to be a successful author, not a hack, but I also want to not starve. Suddenly, my hack projects have exploded at a tremendous rate. Imagine that! -.-

Back on point: I have to say that after reading L.J. Smith, my opinion on Meyer's writing has imporved marginally. Not a lot, but enough to say, "Holy crap, thee are SO many books out there much, worse worse than hers could ever be."

People should have faith in their original stories -- it's far more a matter of timing, publicity, genre placement and COVER ART than actual talent. Sad, but true. Attention spans in bookstores are short, and they still happen to be the most popular places to pick up 'impulse' books -- books that people might not normally read but appealed to them because of advertising, good press or catchy presentations.

Date: 2008-07-04 01:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nyssa23.livejournal.com
With you on this 100%. I can't quite figure out how to apply the work I do on fan fic to original stuff. Weird. :/

Date: 2008-07-04 02:01 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
That's something I've been pondering on myself. It seems to me that there are useful techniques and approaches that fanfic writers use that could be ported over but I'm not sure exactly what or how.

I did have the idea that something like a [livejournal.com profile] ship_manifesto could be useful for stories with romantic interests. Maybe not necessarily as involved as some of those can get especially the one I wrote but a little bit of meta about why you have paired up two characters could help spark some plot ideas or suchlike.

I have found Mary Sue Litmus Tests to be a good way of keeping out for the trap of making original characters too special -- though I think most MSLTs are meant to be jokes/tounge-in-cheek and there's a danger in taking them too seriously and taking a character through to Sue-dom on the other side.

Other than that, I don't have much off the top of my head, but I'm going to keep pondering and I'm always open to suggestions.

Date: 2008-07-04 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nyssa23.livejournal.com
You know, I've never even considered putting an original character besides the most undistinguished background/extra/patient for House in my fics, because I just don't want to run the risk of Sue-ing it up. :(

So perhaps I'll need to simply WRITE MOAR before feeling confident enough to branch out into anything original. Food for thought, though! I heart metafandom.

Date: 2008-07-04 03:15 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
That's a good plan, you can always try sticking an original character in, just for shits and giggles. Make them a minor recurring character, like the cashier at the hospital cafeteria or a janitor or something, maybe?

Date: 2008-07-05 05:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
On this teensy little fandom that I write for, we stick in a ton of original characters-- because we have to crew an entire ship. And those names stuck around, along with the bits of backstory that happened for them. Burton and Cooper are able seamen, both of them from Northumberland area, and are matelots-- a permanent pair. Mick Gully is one of the better fighters, Staines is an irritating old bastard, and Stoney would be a fairly handsome guy if it weren't for his horribly rotted teeth.

But one young guy, Jamie Martingale, has absolutely taken on a life of his own, with a complex backstory. I've written stories where the principal canon figures hardly even enter the action-- And I'd love to turn his story into an original novel.

Oddly enough, I can't do that, for the same reason I can't go publishing fanfic-- Jamie isn't mine, I'm writing, essentially, fanfic about a fanon-not-canon figure.

Date: 2008-07-05 08:13 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
We've got a character like that in Transfomers' fandom as well. His name is Dreadmoon and he was created by Wayward Martian (http://www.insecticons.com) who is one of the best fan artists I've ever seen. She created Dreadmoon and the character somehow managed to take on a life of his own -- people use him in stories, they do fan art of him, hell, he's even got a fan video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDSWX1pZ0gs)

So, heck, go for it!

Date: 2008-07-05 08:14 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
err...in the sense of writing fanfic about a fanon character, that is.

Date: 2008-07-05 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
See, I really love it when that happens!

here from metafandom

Date: 2008-07-04 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
Well, hell, I'm right with you! I've always written original fic, and I got sucked into fandom because of the supporty, let's-share, group nature of the thing, because writing all by yourself is lonely after awhile.
My favorite character, Jack Sparrow, is very much like many of my original characters in the first place. And that makes it even more troublesome to me, because why not write about my own small, dark, morally and sexually ambiguous protagonist? And it's frustrating to me, when I see myself squander a great phrase on something that cannot be published someday... But I do it anyway.


And now I'm off to look at your original fic...

Re: here from metafandom

Date: 2008-07-04 05:10 am (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
And that makes it even more troublesome to me, because why not write about my own small, dark, morally and sexually ambiguous protagonist?

That drives me crazy sometimes, because it feels like "Wait, I could make up my own character like this and do some other stuff different that I like too!"

Which then prompts the art snob in my head to be all "But that's copying; you're not a copier, are you?"

And then it's off to Cheesy Fanfic Headspace Monologue Land

Me: Sod off! I can make it different -- look how many fiesty heroines with supernatural abilities/alliances there are out there!
Art Snob: Well, if you want to be like that...
Me: Well, maybe I do!
Art Snob: Fine, fine...follow instead of lead...
Me: Why do you sound like Blast Off?
Art Snob: .....hack!
Followed by guilt and sulkings on my part.

And, let me just say, EEP!

Re: here from metafandom

Date: 2008-07-05 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
Ahh hahaha!

Yeah, I have those convos too;
Me: If I write a small, dark, ambiguous pirate, everyone will know where I got it from. But I hate to waste all that Age Of Sail research...
So I'll write a small, dark, ambiguous SPACE captain, instead!
Myself: Yeah, that will put them off the scent.
Me: Female?
Myself: Not slash? That would be a change!
Me: And a sentient spaceship.
Myself: Oh, like "The ship Who Sang?"
Me: oh fuck.
No, more like "Skeen's Leap."
Myself: It's still fanfic, even if the source is obscure.
Me: How about if she has a tail!
Myself: ...
Me: Why can't she have a tail?

I'm going to try to write it anyway.

I didn't find your OG-- where do I look?

Re: here from metafandom

Date: 2008-07-05 08:19 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
You should do this! I would be interested in seeing a small, dark, ambiguous SPACE captain who is female with a sentient spaceship and a tail -- primarily because one of my first original character ideas way back in the mists of time (okay, around 1982, when I was twelve) was for a small, female-woman type person to follow around the A-Team and be their secret weapon. Because, I figured, while B.A. is all well and good everybody's going to EXPECT the big guy to be the one to take down first. Nobody's going to expect the small woman with the gun under her coat to come in and shoot the place up.

Re: here from metafandom

Date: 2008-07-05 08:28 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
Gahh...I forgot to answer this: as far as my original fiction goes, I don't have much posted here...yet. I'm going to start posting some things here hopefully fairly soon.

However, I do have the first chapter of my novel in progress up here: Butcher's Bill -- Chapter One (http://dunmurderin.livejournal.com/71800.html?format=light) -- it's since been revised and I'll be posting a new version soon but here's what I have so far.

Oh, yay!

Date: 2008-07-05 10:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
I am seriously planning to write this! I have some ideas for plots for this character. I know her name, and the names of some of the supporting cast-- She is Tam Catt, and the ship is Sugarpuss. Her long-time lover is Minocci Do Addi, a human and female political type, and there are a couple of male lovers-- Ronity is one, and Burek is another... My first glimps of her was in middle-age, wanting to take life easy, and getting suckered into a quest. Now, of course, there's all kinds of backstory that could be written-- either now, or later. How did a half-breed end up with a sentient ship? Well, she inherited from the privateer she was crewing for. Why was she crewing for a privateer, and what does that mean in spaceship terms? That sort of thing...

Can I use your little-lady-secret-weapon idea, or do you need to keep it for yourself?

Re: Oh, yay!

Date: 2008-07-05 10:52 pm (UTC)
ext_9605: A lungfish with the caption "Where are my eggs benedict?" -- because animals asking for strange food is funny! (Default)
From: [identity profile] dunmurderin.livejournal.com
You may use it with my blessing. It's one of those easily adapted, generic ideas that can be used in many variations.

Just keep me appraised of this story 'cause I want to READ it! *G*

Re: Oh, yay!

Date: 2008-07-05 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dharma-slut.livejournal.com
Okay! I wasn't thinking of posting this in LJ, but I will now just did.

I gotta friend you real quick, so you can see it.

here from metafandom del.icio.us

Date: 2008-07-04 01:09 pm (UTC)
ext_22: Pretty girl with a gele on (Default)
From: [identity profile] quivo.livejournal.com
I think you captured the fanfic/original fic (and god, there should probably be a better name for it by now) dichotomy pretty wellin this post. It still fascinates me how what's hard about writing either type of fiction varies for everyone. Personally, I'm finding fanfic easier right now, but that's because I'm writing a huge AU that needs more research-type care and feeding than canony stuff.
Also, if I could find a way to make posting original fic as easy to do as fanfic, I'd so be there. Unfortunately, the only rapid route I can think of is posting to fictionpress or something like it. And until I get used to finding and reading stuff there, I'll probably keep from posting there simply because I feel like it'll be hard for people to find.

Forgetting that you usually aren't alone in how you feel about stuff seems to be a widely shared human trait regardless of hobby or profession ;)

Date: 2008-07-04 02:42 pm (UTC)
ext_3690: Ianto Jones says, "Won't somebody please think of the children?!?" (wife)
From: [identity profile] robling-t.livejournal.com
My Muse has turned to fanfic lately out of sheer frustration with the current state of the publishing world [long rant redacted here, just imagine some grumbling about the death of the midlist] -- it's been an interesting experience in getting stuff out there before an audience on a self-imposed deadline, and I think that playing in a sandbox where you can measure yourself against the known-good example of the original canon is a valid way of developing those writerly muscles that any form of fiction uses. And yes, there is always that "...and if this had been Original!fiction!Muse that had turned up to work I'd have, well, another OF novel to throw in the trunk, most likely" nagging self-doubt, but sometimes you do need to blow off some steam in front of a more or less supportive audience just to keep from going completely mad.

And oh, man, do I hear you on the research. I'm perfectly capable of spending half the night pursuing something for background just because I'll know if it's wrong if I don't...

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